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Tema: AFP, 27.2.05

  1. #1
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    Početno AFP, 27.2.05

    Health - AFP
    AFP
    Catholic Church sparks furious IVF debate in Croatia

    Sun Feb 27, 6:32 PM ET

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    ZAGREB (AFP) - Croatia's highly conservative Catholic Church has sparked outrage from parents and rights groups after it condemned in-vitro fertilization (IVF) as a "crime against human life".

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    "It was so hard for me to hear such statements since I'm a believer and during my attempts to get pregnant with medical help I was sending all my prayers to the dear Lord and Our Lady," Daniela Saponjic told AFP.

    The 36-year-old businesswoman from the southern Adriatic town of Split underwent infertility treatments for eight years until her son, Luka, born on April 8, 2002, was conceived in her fourth IVF attempt in a Zagreb hospital.

    For Daniela and the parents of some 15,000 artificially conceived babies in Croatia, their children are little miracles.

    But for Croatia's Catholic bishops, IVF is tantamount to a crime against humanity.

    "Medically assisted reproduction represents a serious crime against human life and its dignity," they said in a recent declaration.

    The bishops urged people to think about the embryos, which they numbered at 285,000, which were "killed or frozen" during the procedure, which involves the artificial fertilisation of a human egg in a laboratory.

    The Church also distributed a brochure entitled "A child -- a gift or an object?" which claimed that children are "transformed into an object" during the procedure.

    IVF babies, the bishops explained, had "significantly more health problems, disorders and diseases" as well as "a series of psychological and psychiatric disorders."

    Gynecologist Damir Bukovic, speaking at a press conference for the association of Catholic doctors, asserted that the main cause of infertility was the "irresponsible behavior of young people."

    "The best medical book is the Bible, which says have only one partner," he said.

    Fresh from a public relations disaster last year when bishops sought exemptions from tough new drink driving laws due to the traditional offerings of wine at Holy Communion, the Church's latest attack on artificial insemination has provoked a new wave of anguish in this deeply Catholic country.

    Women's groups and parent organizations have led a chorus of protest
    , while a group of independent medical experts slammed the "rude lies and disinformation" being spread by the leaders of the Croatian Church.

    Croatia's current law on medically assisted reproduction dates back to 1978, when the world's first "test-tube baby" was born. Croatia had its first IVF baby five years later.

    A new bill has been in the offing for the past eight years, allowing donations of eggs and embryos and infertility treatments for single women. But the draft law has never reached parliament, many believe due to strong opposition from the Church.

    Beneath all the outrage about drink driving laws and IVF babies there is a deeper issue of the Catholic Church's place in Croatian society.

    Oppressed during the communist years after World War II, the Church has re-emerged since Croatia won independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 to reclaim its assumed role as the guardian of national values.



    But while 88 percent of Croatia's 4.4 million people are Catholics, the country is changing and the Church is battling to maintain its privileges of power. Croatia's new political elite are almost unanimous in supporting the secular values espoused by the European Union (news - web sites), which Zagreb hopes to join by the end of the decade.

    "By such extremely inhuman and non-ethical statements the Church has affected mainly its own flock," Mirjana Krizmanic, a social psychologist, told AFP.

    "The parents of such children are being made to feel guilty. It's a rather surprising move for the Church, which claims to understand and help all people."

    Krizmanic said the Church's outbursts would only strengthen secularism in Croatia, and perhaps even drive some believers to review their faith.

    But for Daniela, the bishops were having no influence on her faith in God as she gathered the "physical and emotional strength" to try for her second IVF baby.

    "Faith is something you either have or you don't. I perceive all this as a challenge," she said.

  2. #2
    egemama avatar
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    :D :D :D

  3. #3
    Daniela32 avatar
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    ccc, nisi boldala mene. Baš me zanima jel objavio tko u tiskanim medijima.

  4. #4
    casper avatar
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    Žene, pa di nam je kraj???

  5. #5

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    Cure, tako sam ponosna na vas!

  6. #6
    andrij avatar
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    Čisto me zanima...koji dio ovog teksta potpisuje Daniela ,a koji dio tekstopisac i zanima me isto tko je tekstopiscu davao stare informacije :?

  7. #7
    Daniela32 avatar
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    Ja ne potpisujem ništa, nego novinarka. Čuj, vidi se lijepo koje su moje rečenice, a uglavnom su moj privatni odnos s vjerom.

    Ne znam uopće na što misliš kad pričaš o zastarjelim informacijama, jer ja osim malo zastarjele terminologije kao što su "umjetna oplodnja" i "beba iz epruvete" ne kužim di je zastarjelo išta drugo!?

  8. #8
    andrij avatar
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    Pa zato što su se neka stajališta koja su davno razjasnila..i rasvijetlila...kako vidim još uvijek na tapetu

    Učinila si za Hrvatsku dobro djelo jer će sad k nama doć živit katolici koji i prakticiraju svoju vjeru...vide ljudi da odi narodom upravljaju crkvenjaci umjesto napuvanih bogatih političara....

  9. #9
    Daniela32 avatar
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    Iz opsežnog intrvjua koji sam dala, izvučeno je ovo:

    "It was so hard for me to hear such statements since I'm a believer and during my attempts to get pregnant with medical help I was sending all my prayers to the dear Lord and Our Lady," Daniela Saponjic told AFP.

    The 36-year-old businesswoman from the southern Adriatic town of Split underwent infertility treatments for eight years until her son, Luka, born on April 8, 2002, was conceived in her fourth IVF attempt in a Zagreb hospital.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    But for Daniela, the bishops were having no influence on her faith in God as she gathered the "physical and emotional strength" to try for her second IVF baby.

    "Faith is something you either have or you don't. I perceive all this as a challenge," she said.


    Ovo zadnje je trebalo biti redemption umjesto challenge (iskušenje umjesto izazov).

    Ne vidim kako sam s ovim riječima napravila dobro djelo koje mi pripisuješ? :?

  10. #10
    andrij avatar
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    Pa upravo sve što si rekla ide u prilog vjeri i vjernicima - osobito onima iz Splita...

    Kad je tvoja vjera tolika da ideš protiv Crkvene mašinerije-kolika li je tek vjera kod onih koji toj mašineriji vjeruju slijepo.

  11. #11
    Daniela32 avatar
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    Premda sam tekst dobila na autorizaciju i dala odobrenje, vidim da moram razjasniti dio teksta koji se odnosi na mene:

    But for Daniela, the bishops were having no influence on her faith in God as she gathered the "physical and emotional strength" to try for her second IVF baby.

    Nije baš da biskupska konferencija nije imala utjecaja na mene: zaradila sam gastritis i opetovane noćne more.

    Na pitanje da li je BK poremetila moje planove za začećem drugog djeteta, rekla sam da nije, da se pripremam psihički i fizički za svoj 6. pokušaj IVF-a u lipnju.

    "Faith is something you either have or you don't. I perceive all this as a challenge," she said.

    Na pitanje da li je BK utjecala na moju vjeru i odnos prema crkvi - odgovorila sam da nije, da sam ostala vjernica i članica crkve, a sve ovo za mene je bilo veliko iskušenje (vjere) koje sam prebrodila.

    Tijekom ovog iskušenja, pomogli su mi određeni članovi crkve i svećenici, na čemu sam im duboko zahvalna.

  12. #12
    andrij avatar
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    jesi sigurna da su ti pomogli pravi svećenici
    - ako ne priznaju papin autoritet i crkvenu hijerarhiju
    - koju priznaje i jedan Zlatko Sudac
    - onda mislim da si nagazila na pogrešne svećenike...

    ...vjeruješ , ideš k svećenicima,ideš u Crkvu

    - ali ne priznaješ autoritet Crkve kojom ravnaju svećenici i Papa po Duhu Svetom...

  13. #13
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    Draga moja Danči, najvažnije je na svijetu da su ti pomogli tvoj liječnik i biolog

  14. #14
    andrij avatar
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    Citiraj Gost 1 prvotno napisa
    Draga moja Danči, najvažnije je na svijetu da su ti pomogli tvoj liječnik i biolog
    REČE ONA - jer nikakav Bog ti u životu nije potreban-Bog samo komplicira stvari....

  15. #15
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    ...i završavam misao:... da nije bilo njih, ili da si se rodila u neko drugo vrijeme, kad još znanost nije toliko napredovala, bila bi uskraćena za svoju najveću sreću-najdražeg Luku

  16. #16
    andrij avatar
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    i tvoj bi život onda bio tako promašen - moš si mislit

  17. #17
    andrij avatar
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    upravo rečeno da svi oni koji nisu obavili umjetnu imaju promašen život i da ustvari nisu uopće se trebali niti roditi tako glupi i zatucani u mozak.

  18. #18
    klmama avatar
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    andrij-koji je tvoj problem? :?

  19. #19
    andrij avatar
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    A koji je tvoj problem?

    Pokušavam iznijeti malo drugačije viđenje cijelog stanja...

    Poznajem dovoljno ljudi koji nemaju dovoljno novca da bi obavili umjetnu i dobili djete ...pa kontam poslije ovoga svega da im je život stvarno nikakav...rodili se ljudi bez veze!!!!

  20. #20
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    Andrij, ukoliko poznaješ ljude kojima je potrebna medicinski potpomognuta oplodnja, molim te prenesi im za njih dragocjeni podatak:
    do navršene 38. godine života žene, HZZO pokriva troškove tri postupka kompletno-lijekovi+sam postupak.
    Nakon tri pokušaja ili nakon navršene 38. godine života HZZO pokriva sve daljnje postupke (bez lijekova) sve dok se postupci, prema mišljenju struke, mogu raditi.
    Cijena postupka i cijena lijekova u prosjeku su podjednake-postupak košta približno 6.000 kn (ponavljam, u svakom slučaju refundira HZZO).

  21. #21
    andrij avatar
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    Dali HZZO plaća troškove putovanja i smještaja pošto je riječ o obiteljima koje su od Zagreba udaljene kojih 360 km?

    Koliko novca treba izdvojiti za to ,a u prosjeku se ima nekih 2000( i to sam rekla puno)mjesečno bez režija i bez hrane...

  22. #22
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    Da, HZZO refundira putne troškove

  23. #23
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    Po udaljenosti, rekla bih da je riječ u Osijeku ili Splitu, a ti gradovi imaju odjele u kojima je moguće obaviti većinu postupaka medicinski potpomognute oplodnje.

  24. #24
    andrij avatar
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    Riječ je o Stonu....poprilično kilometara...

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