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Tema: Priznati istinu ili živjeti u obmani?

  1. #1

    Datum pristupanja
    Sep 2013
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    Početno Priznati istinu ili živjeti u obmani?

    Samohrana sam majka djeteta od 8 mj, biološki otac djeteta me nagovarao na pobačaj,ne želi ni čuti za dijete a kamoli ga upoznati,izgubili smo svaki kontakt.
    Muskarac koji je priznao moje dijete moj je sada bivši dečko,i on od početka zna da nije djetetov biološki otac.Situacija je bila jako zamršena,mislili smo da ćemo uspjeti dijete odgajati skupa no ipak smo prekinuli.Imamo korektan odnos,on povremeno viđa dijete i ne plaća alimentaciju,niti ja tražim da plaća. Radi se o tome da njegovi roditelji neznaju da njihov sin nije biološki otac moga djeteta i žive u obmani da su mu oni biološki djed i baka.
    Mene to sve više muči,već sam par puta razgovarala s bivšim o tome da prizna istinu svojoj majci ali on to ne želi,boji se da bi ju mogao povrijediti.Moja majka koja također zna istinu nagovara me da ne priznam njegovima ništa jer da je na njemu da im prizna ako želi a ako ne želi neka ovako ostane,kaže mi da ne uništavam njegovoj majci snove,plaši me što će biti ako dijete u budućnosti želi potražiti svoga biološkog oca pa se razocara,a ovako bi bar mislilo da ima "biološkog oca" koji ga rijetko vidi i nebi tražilo pravoga..
    A meni to neda mira- mislim da nisam kadra cijeli život lagati djetetu da mu je moj bivši pravi otac,da su mu njegovi roditelji pravi djed i baka.Voljela bih da odrasta u istini od malena,nego da u osjetljivoj dobi sazna istinu i bude povrijeđeno.
    Ali nailazim na mnoge kočnice-prvenstveno moja majka,do čijeg mi je inače mišljenja stalo jer se uvijek uspostavljalo da je bila u pravu.
    I moj brat me odgovara,svi me plaše da ću istinom povrijediti njegove roditelje i dijete,te da je ovako bolje i neka se ne zamaram više time..
    A mene to sve više tišti.
    Potražila sam čak i savjet psihologa,anonimno putem e-maila i savjetovano mi je da dijete odgajam u istini.
    Koga da poslušam, svoju majku i brata ili svoj unutarnji glas?

  2. #2
    Dijana avatar
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    Ja bi rekla, svoj unutarnji glas. Jednog dana kad doznaju istinu, svi će kriviti tebe, dijete pogotovo. Ne znam zašto roditeljima
    bivšeg niste odmah to rekli, ovako ste se samo zapetljali, pa ćete već morati objašnjavati zašto to odmah niste rekli, a što
    dalje to će biti gore..Nema sreće u laži, bar ne dugoročne.

  3. #3
    Kosjenka avatar
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    ta kompletna priča nije dobra za tvoje dijete. Još možda da ste skupa ostali nekako nategnuto alii ovako..
    ja se ne bi pravdala nikome, nego slušala sebe, svoj unutarnji glas i mislila na svoje diejte, kako bi mu bilo da sazna istinu jednog dana
    Posljednje uređivanje od Kosjenka : 12.09.2013. at 14:57

  4. #4
    Apsu avatar
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    Uvijek sam za iskrenost.. Nakon bezbroj neprospavanih noći, gutanja, straha i nečiste savjesti , život me tako naučio.. Lažima stvaramo neki svoj svijet u kojem igramo uloge koje nismo, lažemo sami sebe i druge a to dovodi do toga da smo u suštini jako tužna i nesretna bića, a samo jedan trenutak hrabrosti da stanemo i suočimo se sa istinom u oči mijenja život i to mijenja na način da istina nagrađuje one koji su stali na njenu stranu ..

  5. #5
    Superman avatar
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    Istina. Iskrenost prema sebi i drugima osnova je za bilo koji kvalitetan odnos u životu.

  6. #6
    cvijeta73 avatar
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    auf.
    i ja sam za istinu.
    biti će čupavo mjesec-dva, a onda će se sve srediti, vidjeti ćeš. sve izgleda gore kad o tome razmišljamo, nego kad se stvarno i desi. preozbiljna je to laž, a da bi djetetu to priuštila. a sad je maleni i sve će biti ok.

  7. #7
    Deaedi avatar
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    Citiraj cvijeta73 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    auf.
    i ja sam za istinu.
    biti će čupavo mjesec-dva, a onda će se sve srediti, vidjeti ćeš. sve izgleda gore kad o tome razmišljamo, nego kad se stvarno i desi. preozbiljna je to laž, a da bi djetetu to priuštila. a sad je maleni i sve će biti ok.
    Slazem se. Reci istinu, nema smisla da svi zive u lazi.

  8. #8

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    a kaj je sad bitno tko je donator sperme tvoj bivsi decko mu je tata ili ne. mislim da te to muci jer nema konkretan odnos sa djetom. kreni od njega i toga sto on osjeca za dijete. ako zeli biti tata onda to znaci i redovne susret i alimentaciju i brigu o djetetu.

    kad bi ti to funkcioniralo ne bi se uopce zamarala idejama o donatoru sperme

  9. #9

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    rasprave na temu istine su mi besmislene i bespotrebne. istina je onakva kavom je ti prikazes. sto znaci odgajati dijete u istini? pa skoro sve mame koj su tu djecu dobile sa neodgovornim budalama sad toj istoj djeci lazu kad se tata ne pojavi, ne spominju djetetu da se ne placa alimentacija nego poksuavaju djetetu zadrzati iluziju o tati koji ih voli

    sretno

  10. #10
    Teta Eta avatar
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    Mislim da trebas reci istinu, prije nego sto lazi (koje su i sad velike) za sobom povuku nove lazi i cijela prica bude van kontrole.

  11. #11

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    I ja glasam za istinu. To ce ti biti sad tesko, ali kad to pregrmis odahnut ces.

  12. #12
    žužy avatar
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    I ja sam za istinu.Ali on je taj koji ju mora reči svojim roditeljima.Vjerojatno nemaš neke odnose više sad s njima,a kak cvijeta veli,bit će čupavo možda mjesec dva,al i to bude prošlo a onda ćeš nastaviti normalan život...
    A bebač je još mali,neće mu faliti ti ljudi,ako naravno odluče ne viđati ga više.
    Ustvari,samo si pročitaj kaj si sama napisala...
    mislim da nisam kadra cijeli život lagati djetetu da mu je moj bivši pravi otac,da su mu njegovi roditelji pravi djed i baka.Voljela bih da odrasta u istini od malena,nego da u osjetljivoj dobi sazna istinu i bude povrijeđeno.

  13. #13
    Deaedi avatar
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    Citiraj stray_cat prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    rasprave na temu istine su mi besmislene i bespotrebne. istina je onakva kavom je ti prikazes. sto znaci odgajati dijete u istini? pa skoro sve mame koj su tu djecu dobile sa neodgovornim budalama sad toj istoj djeci lazu kad se tata ne pojavi, ne spominju djetetu da se ne placa alimentacija nego poksuavaju djetetu zadrzati iluziju o tati koji ih voli

    sretno
    istina je samo jedna, tu si u pravu. no, bas zato treba jasno reci istinu o bioloskom ocu.

  14. #14

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    Citiraj Deaedi prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    istina je samo jedna, tu si u pravu. no, bas zato treba jasno reci istinu o bioloskom ocu.
    problem je u terminologiji

    donator sperme nije otac, u tom dijelu lezi istina. sto je bolje reci djetetu da, on je insistirao na prekidu trudnoce jer to je istina? gdje je tu pokrice za rijec tata?

  15. #15
    Osoblje foruma mikka avatar
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    pa dobro, postoji bioloski otac ili kako ti kazes donator spreme i tata. mislim da to svi mogu shvatiti.

    i ja glasam za istinu, i to sto prije, prije nego se zapetlja jos jace

  16. #16
    Peterlin avatar
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    Citiraj cvijeta73 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    auf.
    i ja sam za istinu.
    biti će čupavo mjesec-dva, a onda će se sve srediti, vidjeti ćeš. sve izgleda gore kad o tome razmišljamo, nego kad se stvarno i desi. preozbiljna je to laž, a da bi djetetu to priuštila. a sad je maleni i sve će biti ok.
    X

    Na duge pruge muljanje se ne isplati. Sretno!

  17. #17
    sara10 avatar
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    I ja sam za istinu jer u laži se ne može živjeti. A ovo je ozbiljna stvar, riječ je o tvom životu i životu tvog djeteta. Tim više što nisi u vezi (a i da jesi) sa bivšim, treba reći istinu što prije radi TVOG DJETETA. Mislim da je tu najbitnije tvoje dijete, više od roditelja tvog bivšeg. Njima će to sigurno biti šok, sigurno su se i vezali za malenog, ali nije rješenje živjeti u laži. Kao što si i sama rekla, to te tišti i mislim da će ti život sa tvojim djetetom biti puno lakši ako kažeš istinu. Zamisli samo da ti dijete to sazna kada bude imalo 14,15 buntovnih godina i onda šta???

  18. #18

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    Zahvaljujem svima na vašim odgovorima.
    Moram samo skupiti snage i prestati povlađivati drugima i misliti prvenstveno na dijete. Naravno,strah me kako će reagirati njegovi,prvenstveno njegova majka ali nas dvije smo oduvijek ostvarivale dobru komunikaciju pa se nekako nadam..da će sve proći u redu.
    pozdrav

  19. #19
    Zuska avatar
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    Dijete ima pravo znati istinu o sebi.

  20. #20

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    Slažem se sa Zuskom, dijete mora znati istinu o sebi. Zamisli kako bi mu bilo da istinu sazna u pubertetu ili kasnije (a uvijek se sazna).

  21. #21
    ina33 avatar
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    Istinu, zbog svih uključenih strana, a prvenstveno djeteta i tebe. Na tebe ova situacija već razorno djeluje na psihu, a kako li bi bilo za par godina, kad se od relativno savladive grude nagomila u gromadum, kad tvoj bivši dečko nađe drugu curu i napravi novu obitelj i dodatno zahladi ponašanje - izaći će to na vidjelo ionako vjerojatno za 4-5 godina najkasnije. Sretno!!!!
    Posljednje uređivanje od ina33 : 13.09.2013. at 09:05

  22. #22
    IvanaR avatar
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    Znaš kako se kaže: tri čoveka mogu čuvati tajnu samo ako su dvojica od njih mrtvi. Mislim da ovu tajnu zna suviše ljudi da bi mogla da bude sačuvana. Ali Stray cat je u jednom u pravu, ti i tvoj bivši morate da se dogovorite šta će on nadalje biti tvom detetu, tata ili striček. Kad to sredite i sve ostalo će se srediti.

  23. #23
    naniluc avatar
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    Citiraj ladidada prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    strah me kako će reagirati njegovi,prvenstveno njegova majka ali nas dvije smo oduvijek ostvarivale dobru komunikaciju pa se nekako nadam..da će sve proći u redu.
    Nemoj se previše nadati da ćete nakon ovog ostati u dobrim odnosima- nećete. Bit će grubih riječi i plača, ali nakon toga će ti biti puno lakše. Ako živiš u malom mjestu bit će ti još teže jer će svi pričati sve i svašta, ali to će potrajati sve do nekog novog skandala tak da se ne trebaš previše živcirati zbog toga.

    Dijete svakako treba znati tko mu je tata ( obadva)- donator sperme I čovjek koji ga je priznao kao svoje - tako da ako se slučajno promijene odnosi među njima, kad bude veći, da se slučajno ne zapita- a zašto me tata ne voli.

  24. #24
    Beti3 avatar
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    A nitko nije uzeo u obzir činjenicu da je taj čovjek djetetov otac na papiru ( bez obzira što to nije bila njegova sperma). I to je ISTINA. Nije ni malo važno TKO je BIOLOŠKI otac. On nije otac, on je SAMO davaoc sperme.

    Tvoje dijete će biti dijete čovjeka koji ga je priznao, za cijeli život. To se ne može promijeniti. I zato NE mijenjaj ništa. Nikome ništa ne pričaj o biološkom ocu. On više ne postoji, Nebitan je.

    Nebitan je tebi, nebitan je tvome djetetu. Pokušaj promatrati sa tog stanovišta. Ne možeš negirati čovjeka koji ga je priznao kao svoje dijete. On ima sva prava i dužnosti roditelja. Jedino, ako ode na sud i sudski dokaže da tvoj sin nije i njegov sin, tada se sve mijenja. Do tada, on je tata na papiru i mora brinuti i pridonositi uzdržavanju vašeg djeteta. sam je to odlučio i sada neka se nosi s time. pri tome vaš međusobni odnos nije bitan. Dok god je on upisan kao djetetov otac, on to jest, po svim zakonima.

    Razmisli JAKO dobro što ćeš učiniti. Možda da se posavjetuješ sa odvjetnikom?

  25. #25
    cvijeta73 avatar
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    beti, a zašto se posvojenoj djeci mora reći da su posvojena? zakonski mora? jel bi ti voljela saznati s 15 godina da ti tata nije, kako vi kažete, donator sperme? iako to sve skupa ništa ne mijenja u životu, ipak je važno.
    Posljednje uređivanje od cvijeta73 : 14.09.2013. at 08:25

  26. #26
    Angie75 avatar
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    Citiraj cvijeta73 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    beti, a zašto se posvojenoj djeci mora reći da su posvojena? zakonski mora? jel bi ti voljela saznati s 15 godina da ti tata nije, kako vi kažete, donator sperme? iako to sve skupa ništa ne mijenja u životu, ipak je važno.
    nije baš i da ne mijenja ništa u životu, kako kažeš :/
    činjenica je da je život u laži užasan, jer ti taj mali glasić u glavi stalno smeta i kvari sva zadovoljstva. uostalom, iskustvo kaže da se svaka laž na kraju dozna. po meni je isto bolje reći kako stvari stoje i jednom završiti s tim. znam da je sad grozno premišljati se, ali kad jednom kažeš i kad se strasti smire, a to nikad nije dugo, osjećat ćeš kao da si odvalila planinu s leđa.

  27. #27
    Beti3 avatar
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    Muskarac koji je priznao moje dijete moj je sada bivši dečko,i on od početka zna da nije djetetov biološki otac.
    Pišem o zakonskim posljedicama. Ovaj čovjek je djetetov otac. Po zakonu. I to jt to. Ako to nije, neka me neki pravnik ispravi. Ali, priznanje očinstva sa sobom povlači sve ostalo.

    Da li će reći jednom djetetu da mu otac na papiru nije i biološki otac, druga je stvar. U djetetovom rodnom listu piše da mu je to otac. I zamislite sad dijete kojemu se kaže da mu to nije otac, da je netko nepoznat napravio ga. A zašto ga je ovaj priznao?
    Ma, neka svima kaže istinu, meni to nije bitno, ali mora prvo riješiti papirnati dio. Ispisat navodnog oca iz rodnog lista. I ostaviti samo sebe kao roditelja. Može li se to uopće?

    Jer, sve dok je u rodnom listu ime nekog muškarca, on je otac, njegovi roditelji su djed i baka. Zakonski. I ako to žele biti.

    Opet se pitam, zašto je taj čovjek priznao dijete, ako ga ne želi? Gdje mu je pamet bila? I gdje je otvaračici teme pamet bila kad je to dopustila?
    Izvući se iz svega neće biti ni malo lako. A kako će to prihvatiti najnedužniji od svih, koji će kad-tad saznati tko mu je otac u rodnom listu, ili samo bio otac u rodnom listu...Jadno malo.

  28. #28
    cvijeta73 avatar
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    beti, čini mi se da briješ.
    Posljednje uređivanje od cvijeta73 : 14.09.2013. at 12:04

  29. #29
    Mima avatar
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    Naravno da se to treba riješiti, i zakonski i papirnato.
    To dijete može tužiti oca koji mu nije otac za alimentaciju kad postane punoljetno, na primjer.
    Iskreno, čisto sumnjam da će taj čovjek nastaviti održavati kontakte sa tako malim djetetom koje nije njegovo sad kad se razišao sa majkom.
    Život nosi svakojaka iznenađenja, i jako je poželjno da dijete zna tko mu je otac, ili barem tko nije. Najgore je kad se takve stvari priznaju u zadnji čas.

  30. #30
    MarijaP avatar
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    Beti je u pravu. Papirnato, dijete ima oca sa svim pravima i obvezama.

    Iz "ispis" treba dici tuzbu i ici na utvrdjivanje ocinstva, pa opet tuzba za utvrdjivanje bioloskog oca koji ce imati sva prava i obveze.

    Rijesi to dok je jos mali.

    I ja cisto sumnjam da ce netko nakon kratke mladenacke veze odluciti vidjati nebiolosko dijete zato jer se upisao kao otac.

  31. #31
    Trina avatar
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    Ajme..meni bi bilo žao praviti ljude budalama i pustiti ih da žive u uvjerenju da su baka i djed djetetu kojem nisu. Meni se ova priča ne može usporediti s posvojenom djecom..Kad se dijete usvaja, bake i djedovi su upoznati sa svime. Meni ovo više zvuči kao podvala, koliko god sad to tebi ružno zvučalo.

  32. #32

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    Citiraj Trina prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    Ajme..meni bi bilo žao praviti ljude budalama i pustiti ih da žive u uvjerenju da su baka i djed djetetu kojem nisu. Meni se ova priča ne može usporediti s posvojenom djecom..Kad se dijete usvaja, bake i djedovi su upoznati sa svime. Meni ovo više zvuči kao podvala, koliko god sad to tebi ružno zvučalo.

    potpis.

    cijeli život je pred tobom , odriješi čvorove i kreni dalje.
    ovakvi aranžamani nikad nisu ispali dobri ni za koga na dulje staze.

  33. #33
    Beti3 avatar
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    Citiraj cvijeta73 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    beti, čini mi se da briješ.
    nije tema, ali što nije točno od ovoga što sam napisala?

  34. #34

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    sve je točno što si napisala

  35. #35
    Beti3 avatar
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    Citiraj ladidada prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    Radi se o tome da njegovi roditelji neznaju da njihov sin nije biološki otac moga djeteta i žive u obmani da su mu oni biološki djed i baka.
    I još nešto, možda zanemarivo, a možda i ne. Sve zavisi koliko toga materijalnog imaju ti navodni djed i baka. Reći ćeš im da to nije njihov unuk, a on po zakonu naslijeđuje svu imovinu svoga oca ( naravno, ako ne bude druge djece, inače dijele ravnopravno), pa tako, u budućnosti i njihovu. I buduća, eventualna, žena tvog nepromišljenog dečka isto će biti oduševljena da dijeli imovinu sa tamo nekim djetetom.

    Daj, razmisli. Riješi to odmah. Odi na Centar za socijalni rad, pitaj točno što moraš učiniti i izbriši ovg tobožnjeg oca. Ili šuti zauvijek, iako će to dovesti do mnogih i mnogih problema, ako i upisani otac ne bude šutio.
    Ali, nikako ne možeš samo reći da taj čovjek nije otac i ništa dalje. To naprosto nije dovoljno. I nepošteno bi bilo. Prema svima.
    Posljednje uređivanje od Beti3 : 14.09.2013. at 17:38

  36. #36

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    paternity fraud roughly 10 percent of all people


    Mommy's little secret

    As we gather to mark the festive season, here's one juicy morsel mom won't be dishing up: that guy you call your dad may not be. DNA testing has revolutionized medical science, CAROLYN ABRAHAM reports, but it also has uncovered the myth of female monogamy. Now doctors are wondering how to break the news to men

    By CAROLYN ABRAHAM, Saturday, December 14, 2002 – Print Edition, Page F1

    They came to the hospital together, a husband, a wife and the little daughter they feared had been cursed by inheritance. Since birth, she had struggled to breathe, and all the signs pointed to cystic fibrosis.

    If the girl truly had the incurable disease that clogs the lungs, she had to have received two copies of a CF gene, one from each parent. Tests at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto confirmed the family's worst fears -- and then some.

    The girl was indeed afflicted. Her mom carried one of the culprit genes. But her dad, the doctors discovered, was quite a different story. His DNA showed no sign of a CF gene, which means he is not a carrier and he is not her dad.

    Hospital staff have felt bound to keep the secret from him. But when they told the mom, it came as no surprise; it rarely does.
    "It is probably true in a lot of families, that daddy is not who you think it is," says Steve Scherer, a senior scientist in department of genetics at the Hospital for Sick Children.

    As families gather this festive season, here is a spicy fact that mothers might be loath to dish out at the holiday table: It's now widely accepted among those who work in genetics that roughly 10 per cent of us are not fathered by the man we believe to be dad.
    Geneticists have stumbled upon this phenomenon in the course of conducting large population studies and hunting for genes that cause diseases such as cystic fibrosis. They find full siblings to be half-siblings, fathers who are genetic strangers to more than one of their children and uncles who are much closer to their nieces and nephews than anyone might guess. Lumped under the heading of "pedigree errors," these so-called mis-paternities, false paternities and non-paternities are all science jargon for the unwitting number of us who are chips off someone else's block.

    The proverbial postman seems to be ringing twice in everyone's neighbourhood. Non-paternity is believed to cut across all socio-economic classes and many cultures. Factor it into genealogical attempts to trace ancestry and it can snap entire branches from a family tree. Considered in light of long-held views about sexual behaviour, it exposes the myth of female monogamy and utterly shakes the assumption that women are biologically driven to single-mate bliss.

    The widespread use of DNA analysis has presented science and society with all sorts of new ethical problems, and now it's pulling this naked truth out of the closet and into the courtroom. Men who call themselves "Duped Dads" are looking for legal redress to protect themselves against paternity fraud, raising questions about the definition of fatherhood. Several U.S. states are considering legislation that could exempt non-biological fathers from having to pay child support.

    Even the most learned among us are grappling with the implications. Last month, the 10-per-cent non-paternity rate was cited during a science seminar for judges in Halifax.

    "The judges were just shocked; they really couldn't get over how many people this would affect," Dr. Scherer said. "They kept saying things about all those poor people who might be misled -- never realizing that one of them might actually be among them!"

    The notion of a woman carrying the child of someone other than her partner is older than the Christmas story itself. No geneticist believes non-paternity to be purely the product of modern immorality; they have been tripping over the infidelities of earlier generations for decades.
    Cheryl Shuman, director of genetic counselling at the Hospital for Sick Children, said that 15 years ago, when genetic tests were less powerful, researchers had to draw blood from a child, his or her parents and both sets of grandparents. "Sometimes we'd get a call from the grandmother, and she'd say, 'Listen, my son, or my daughter, doesn't know that their father is not their real father. . . .' "
    In the interests of maintaining family peace, Ms. Shuman said, the tests would be dismissed as "uninformative."

    Over the years, the hospital has relied on the advice of lawyers and ethicists to develop policies for handling the situation. For example, its consent form now warns what a genetic test can reveal. Parents "will sometimes giggle in the waiting room when they read the paragraph about non-paternity," Ms. Shuman said. "But then we get the phone call later, forewarning us as to what we might find."
    When a test disqualifies a father, "most women do express some surprise, but then there is a resignation, or an acceptance that they were kind of half anticipating this was going to happen. But then all this is followed very quickly by panic and questions as to whether or not we will betray their confidentiality."

    If the case involves an expectant mother, Ms. Shuman explained, the hospital's legal obligation is clear: The developing baby is considered part of the mother and the results of the tests therefore belong to her.

    After birth, the course of action is less clear, she said, but lawyers advise that the child is to be considered the patient, whose needs trump those of the parents. Since telling the father could trigger a breakup and leave the child without proper support, the hospital keeps the secret. Sometimes it can be a whopper.

    In one family with four daughters, the DNA analysis was so surprising that counsellors asked the mother to explain. "It turned out that the daughters had three different fathers," said Peter Ray, a scientist at the hospital. "We cannot make any conclusions based on the family structures as they are presented to us."

    In the research world, when scientists come across a father in a mismatched family, they toss the sample. If pedigree errors are not caught, Dr. Scherer said, they can wreak statistical havoc with a study: "People have made careers designing software to catch these kinds of things."

    Sample mix-ups can skew results, as can an extremely rare condition discovered in 1989 in which a child inherits two copies of the same chromosome from one parent, obscuring the contribution of the other. But as the number of gene hunts and diagnostic tests has grown and grown, the leading cause of these anomalies has proved to be mistaken fatherhood.
    Some peg the range at 5 to 10 per cent; others, such as Jeanette Papp of the University of California at Los Angeles, feel that 15 per cent is reasonable for the Western world, even if there is no hard evidence. "It's hard to do studies on these things for ethical reasons," says Dr. Papp, director of genotyping and sequencing in UCLA's department of human genetics. "I mean, how do you tell people what you're really looking for?"

    A British survey conducted between 1988 and 1996 by Robin Baker, a former professor at the University of Manchester, confirmed the 10-per-cent figure. That seems high to skeptics such as Dalhousie University geneticist Paul Neumann, although even he admitted that "my colleague, who's a woman, tells me women have no trouble believing it. . . . It's the men who can't."

    Bernard Dickens, a specialist in health law and policy at the University of Toronto, said that in another British example, the non-paternity rate was three times that.

    In the early 1970s, a schoolteacher in southern England assigned a class science project in which his students were to find out the blood types of their parents. The students were then to use this information to deduce their own blood types (because a gene from each parent determines your blood type, in most instances only a certain number of combinations are possible). Instead, 30 per cent of the students discovered their dads were not their biologically fathers.

    "The classroom was, of course, not the ideal place to find out this information," said Prof. Dickens, who is often consulted on ethical issues by geneticists at the Hospital for Sick Children.

    He feels, as do many researchers, that culture can determine whether false paternity is very high or very low. For example, in Muslim Egypt, the integrity of lineage is so important that neither sperm or egg donation nor adoption is permitted, let alone sexual indiscretion.
    But false paternity causes obvious problems for anyone who values a clear pedigree and makes it a statistical impossibility to trace the true identity of our ancestors back more than a few generations.

    Robert Moyzis, a molecular geneticist at the University of California at Irvine, recently had to break this news to a friend who had spent considerable energy and resources compiling a family history that stretched back 1,000 years. "I had to plug the numbers into a computer model and prove it to him. The chances that he was related to the ancestor he thought were zero."

    Logistically, it may seem that only men are naturally programmed for multiple partners. After all, they can produce sperm by the thousands 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and do it well into their retirement years.

    Women, on the other hand, are limited to the eggs they were born with, maturing one a month and not much past their fourth decade of life. The precious few shots that women have at reproduction may drive them to seek the best mate for prospective offspring -- though the decision might be wholly unconscious.

    This notion is bolstered by the "sperm wars" theory, in which Britain's Dr. Baker has noted that sperm of two different men can effectively battle over the spoils of fertilizing the egg in a woman's reproductive tract.

    In 1999, a questionnaire in Britain found that most women tended to be unfaithful to their long-term partners around the time they were most fertile.
    That same year, researchers at St. Andrew's University in Scotland concluded that women seem to desire different types of men at different times of the month. When they are most likely to conceive, they are attracted to men who have very masculine features, preferring more feminine men when they are not ovulating.

    The researchers suggested that women may subconsciously feel that beefy men may make a better biological contribution to a baby, but softer features may signal a better father.

    And strangers may have a biological advantage. "There is actually data from Britain," said sexual-behaviour expert Judith Lipton, "that suggests a woman may be more likely to conceive with a fresh partner because a woman can essentially develop antibodies against her regular partner's sperm, so that she may be more likely to be impregnated by fresh sperm."

    Between 30 and 50 per cent of women cheat on their partners, compared with 50 to 80 per cent of men, said Dr. Lipton, a psychiatrist with the Swedish Medical Center in Washington who last year co-wrote The Myth of Monogamy with her husband, David Barash.

    "This jibes with the idea that as many as 10 per cent of these relations may result in pregnancy," she said, explaining that women may cheat as an escape from a bad marriage, for revenge on a cheating partner, to find a better provider, or just for fun.
    All this messing around might have been predicted by animal behaviour, but it has been only recently that researchers learned just how hard faithful females are to find in any species.

    Dr. Barash, a zoologist and professor of psychology at the University of Washington, explained that while it was generally known that most mammals are rarely monogamous, certain species were held up as paragons of virtue. Scientists believed, for example, fidelity was definitely for the birds. "But not even the swans are monogamous, and they were the poster children for monogamy. Despite their waterfront property, they still sneak around with the neighbours."

    With the 1980s advent of DNA fingerprinting, a quick molecular test that, among other things, tells scientists whether two creatures are genetically related, researchers have realized social monogamy has little bearing on sexual monogamy in the animal kingdom.
    "A lot of hanky-panky goes on even if two creatures set up house together," Dr. Barash said.

    Despite thousands of hours of observation, birds managed to fool not only their mates into thinking they were faithful, but their observers. Yet DNA tests show that 10 to 50 per cent of birds are fathered by a male other than the one sharing the nest.

    "We always knew the possibility was there for males to be available and receptive to EPC -- extra-pair copulation -- but what was not known was that the mated females would do the same thing," Dr. Barash said.

    In part, researchers figured females would be deterred from cheating since they had more to lose than a male by fooling around -- their mate might stop foraging to feed the hungry offspring, cutting off the animal equivalent of child support, or worse, turn violent. Yet this, he said, seems only to have inspired females to perfect the art of secrecy and deception: They persistently sneak off in search of stronger genes, better feeding grounds, good providers and protectors.

    These trysts may have been overlooked, said Frances Burton, an anthropologist at the University of Toronto, because the researchers were often male. "There is a weird double feedback thing that goes on when it comes to observing animals, particularly non-human primates. We impose upon the observations human prejudices . . . it can obfuscate whatever truth there is."

    Even the fact that female animals actually derive enjoyment from copulation wasn't fully accepted until 1971, when Prof. Burton showed that female monkeys stimulated with an electric toothbrush did in fact reach orgasm. "Though they rarely did with male monkeys," she added, "because the males did not engage them for long enough periods."

    Now the hope that fidelity is compatible with wildlife has all but vanished. DNA testing is crossing one species after another off the list. Of 4,000 mammalian species, only 3 per cent are still considered candidates. Birds, bees, snails, snakes, fish, frogs . . . not even mites are monogamous. You have slide well down the food chain before Dr. Barash will put his money on a contender: Diplozoon paradoxum,a parasitic flatworm found in the gills of freshwater fish. The first time two worms mate, their bodies are fused together for life.
    None of this should imply that humans are incapable of monogamy, he added. "Saying something is natural is often used to justify unacceptable behaviour. It's natural to poop on the floor, but we spend a lot of time becoming house broken."

    His wife, however, said the moral transgression of infidelity cannot compare with the deception of lying about paternity. She thinks paternity fraud should be considered a crime of the highest order.

    "Reproductive deception is morally similar to rape," Dr. Lipton said. "If you trick someone into raising a baby not his own, and he puts 20 years of his life into an endeavour based on a falsehood, that is appalling.
    "If I were the queen of the world, birth control, of any form, would be available to any woman who wants it and DNA testing would be available for all the men so that they would know who their babies are."

    There are certainly those -- the "Duped Dads" among them -- who would agree with her.

    Morgan Wise remembers how in 1999 the doctor rose from his chair, walked around the desk and sat down in front of him. Mr. Wise's youngest son had been diagnosed with cystic fibrosis years earlier, but a medical test showed Mr. Wise did not carry a CF gene.
    "My first thought was that they must have misdiagnosed my son," the 40-year-old railway engineer from Big Spring, Tex., said in an interview this week.
    But then the doctor looked him squarely in the eye and said: "Morgan, do you have any reason to think this boy might not be yours?"

    The possibility seemed outlandish. He had been married to the same woman for 13 years and they had had three boys and a girl before they broke up in 1996. But for peace of mind, he decided to go ahead with paternity tests.
    In March, 1999, the results arrived by mail -- a creased piece of paper telling him that not one of the three boys was his.

    "I felt anger toward [my first wife] and sadness, and I felt so sorry for my kids," Mr. Wise recalled. "I told my boys, 'I love you all, you'll always be my sons, the only difference is now I'm not your birth father.' "
    Despite this revelation, a district court judge ruled that Mr. Wise had to continue paying child support for the three boys. Based on a 500-year-old common law, most states operate on the presumption that a husband is the father of any child born to his wife during a marriage.

    Mr. Wise took his case to the media, hoping to generate political support and contact other men in a similar situation. Instead, he angered the judge, who revoked his visitation rights to the children but left him responsible for $1,100 (U.S.) in monthly support.
    "This," Mr. Wise warned, "could happen to anyone."

    The Wise verdict has become a flashpoint for men who discover that their children are not their own. Many are actually eager to find out, ordering paternity kits over the Internet. (The American Association of Blood Banks reports that 30 per cent of men who suspect they are not biological fathers are right.)

    Men have set up support groups and begun to lobby to change what they see as archaic laws. Three states have bills pending that would take paternity fraud into account and at least three others have already passed similar legislation.

    The Wise case also has focused legal minds and ethicists on the definition of fatherhood, and the prevailing view appears to be that dad is the man who reads you bedtime stories, not necessarily the man who shares your DNA.

    In Canada, there has been no case in point. But Prof. Dickens at U of T said a recent ruling suggests that Canadian courts would discount DNA evidence over the best interests of the child. A few years ago, he said, a man tried to win visitation rights for a child he believed he had fathered with a woman who had since married someone else.

    The court ruled that the former boyfriend's biological contribution did not outweigh the risks of compromising the bond the child had forged with the mother's husband. "If you have acted in a fatherlike way toward a child, then you are the father," Prof. Dickens said. "Fatherhood is a social reality, not a genetic reality."

    He firmly believes that people who undergo genetic tests to find out about paternity are entitled to such information. But those being tested for a genetic ailment or some other inherited trait cannot expect the same: "It's not for geneticists to spring this information upon them. The point is, when you are testing for a particular trait, it's either there or it's not there, and there is no need to say why it is or why it isn't."

    Some fathers, of course, feel differently. Stacy Robb, founder and president of the support group DADS Canada, said that "it's unfair because the doctors come across this information and they don't tell the man listed as the father on the birth certificate. It's a disregarding of men's rights. The point is mothers and fathers are not treated equally."

    And as the staff at Hospital for Sick Children are learning, keeping secrets can backfire. In one case, a father who tested negative for a gene that his sick child had inherited wrongly believes himself to be both a carrier of a genetic disorder and the child's natural father.
    Ms. Shuman said counsellors have never told him otherwise, even after his marriage broke up. But recently, he contacted the hospital again to say he has a new partner and wants to come in for further testing. He assumes that any child produced in his new relationship also may be at risk.

    Telling him there is no risk would reveal the truth about his first child. Going ahead with the test denies him the truth about his own DNA.
    Prof. Dickens suggests testing the new partner. If she turns out to be a non-carrier, there is no need of further discussion. But Ms. Shuman said that also may leave counsellors with some unwanted "moral residue."

    "He hasn't come back in yet," she added, "but we may have to reveal the results . . . It all gets messier than you might think. Welcome to my ethically charged world."

    Carolyn Abraham is The Globe and Mail's medical reporter.

  37. #37

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    How Many Men Unknowingly Raise Children Who Aren't Their Own?


    A 2006 survey found that 1.7 to 3.3 percent of fathers are unknowingly raising children who aren't their own. The study found that dads who opt to challenge the paternity of a child are far less likely to be the actual father than fathers who are confident enough not to challenge it. The percentage of fathers who are highly confident of their child's paternity are not the actual fathers 1.7 percent of the time.

    http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-men...-their-own.htm

  38. #38

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    One Out Of Ten People Weren’t Fathered By The Man They Believe Is Dad

    The following is the second chapter from my disinformation book, 50 Things You’re Not Supposed to Know: Volume 2, published in 2004. For more on me go to The Memory Hole or follow me @RussKick on Twitter. Geneticists, disease researchers, and evolutionary psychologists have known it for a while, but the statistic hasn’t gotten much air outside of the ivory tower. Consistently, they find that one in ten of us wasn’t fathered by the man we think is our biological dad.
    Naturally, adoptees and stepchildren realize their paternal situation. What we’re talking about here is people who have taken it as a given, for their entire lives, that dear old Dad is the one who contributed his sperm to the process. Even Dad himself may be under this impression. And Mom, knowing it’s not a sure thing, just keeps quiet.
    Genetic testing companies report that almost one-third of the time, samples sent to them show that the man is not father to the child. But these companies are used when there’s a court order in a paternity suit or when a man gets suspicious because his kid looks a lot like his best friend or his wife’s coworker. So we shouldn’t be surprised that the non-paternity rate for these tests hovers around 30 percent.
    The shocker comes when we look at the numbers for accidental discoveries, those that occur when paternity isn’t thought to be an issue. Sometimes this happens on an individual basis; other times, due to large-scale studies of blood types, disease susceptibility, kinship, and other fields of medical and scientific investigation.
    Dr. Caoilfhionn Gallagher of the University College Dublin gives an example of the former:
    The paradigmatic situation is that three people come to a hospital together, a husband, wife and their child who they fear has cystic fibrosis. If the child has the incurable disease she must have received two copies of the CF gene, one from each parent. Tests at the hospital confirm the family’s worst fears — she has the disease — but also reveal something unexpected. The child’s mother carries one of the culprit genes, but the father’s DNA shows no such sign, which means he is not the carrier and therefore cannot possibly be her biological father.
    The latter type of discovery occurred in the classic case from the early 1970s. Scientists were eyeballing blood types in the British town of West Isleworth, taking the red stuff from entire families. They realized, to their dismay, that fully 30 percent of the children had blood types which proved that they couldn’t possibly be biologically related to their “fathers.” The true rate of illegitimacy was still higher, though, because even some fathers and bastards would have matching blood types due to coincidence. The researchers estimated that the true rate was around 50 percent.
    Other studies have found a 20–30 percent rate in Liverpool, 10 percent in rural Michigan, and 2.3 percent among native Hawaiians. The overall figure of 10 percent is actually an average estimate based on many studies taking place in sundry regions over the course of decades. In his book Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex, biologist Robin Baker, PhD, summarizes the stats:
    Actual figures range from 1 percent in high-status areas of the United States and Switzerland, to 5 to 6 percent for moderate-status males in the United States and Great Britain, to 10 to 30 percent for lower-status males in the United States, Great Britain and France.
    The prestigious medical journal the Lancet concurs: “The true frequency of non-paternity is not known, but published reports suggest an incidence from as low as 1% per generation up to about 30% in the population.”
    The research shows that the lower a purported father’s socioeconomic status, the more likely his wife got someone else to father the child. From a Darwinian standpoint this makes perfect sense, since she wants her offspring to have the highest-caliber DNA, which may not come from the stiff she settled for at the altar.
    This knowledge should make Father’s Day a much more interesting, and introspective, holiday…

    http://disinfo.com/2011/02/one-out-o...elieve-is-dad/

  39. #39
    Angie75 avatar
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    Citiraj Beti3 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    I još nešto, možda zanemarivo, a možda i ne. Sve zavisi koliko toga materijalnog imaju ti navodni djed i baka. Reći ćeš im da to nije njihov unuk, a on po zakonu naslijeđuje svu imovinu svoga oca ( naravno, ako ne bude druge djece, inače dijele ravnopravno), pa tako, u budućnosti i njihovu. I buduća, eventualna, žena tvog nepromišljenog dečka isto će biti oduševljena da dijeli imovinu sa tamo nekim djetetom.

    Daj, razmisli. Riješi to odmah. Odi na Centar za socijalni rad, pitaj točno što moraš učiniti i izbriši ovg tobožnjeg oca. Ili šuti zauvijek, iako će to dovesti do mnogih i mnogih problema, ako i upisani otac ne bude šutio.
    Ali, nikako ne možeš samo reći da taj čovjek nije otac i ništa dalje. To naprosto nije dovoljno. I nepošteno bi bilo. Prema svima.

    khm, beti ima point

  40. #40
    cvijeta73 avatar
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    Citiraj Beti3 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku
    nije tema, ali što nije točno od ovoga što sam napisala?
    mea culpa, površno sam čitala.

  41. #41
    Osoblje foruma apricot avatar
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    Citiraj Beti3 prvotno napisa Vidi poruku

    Opet se pitam, zašto je taj čovjek priznao dijete, ako ga ne želi? Gdje mu je pamet bila? I gdje je otvaračici teme pamet bila kad je to dopustila?
    ne bih bila tako stroga
    sigurno su oboje u tom trenutku upravo tako mislili i napravili u najboljoj namjeri i za sebe i za dijete

    pa svi mi se u crkvi/općini zaklinjemo na ljubav do groba i u tom trenutku doista tako i mislimo
    a poslije...

    treba razriješiti situaciju dok je dijete malo, kasnije će i traume biti veće
    jednako i za baku i djeda... njima će srce biti slomljeno, to je sigurno
    ali opet bolje sada nego kasnije

    iako, ne bih bila u koži njihova sina dok im to bude govorio
    Posljednje uređivanje od apricot : 15.09.2013. at 10:23

  42. #42
    baka avatar
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    Baka i djeda od sina im posvojenog unuka imaju pravo znati tu činjenicu.
    @ladidada već ovim javnim postom posvjetlila si sebi što ti je činiti.

  43. #43
    Beti3 avatar
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    Ustvari, i napisala sam bila, pa obrisala, da zaljubljeni imaju različitu percepciju svijeta dok je kemija takva kakva je među njima. A kad se emocije slegnu, onda se malo razumnije gleda. Iako, to ne opravdava nepromišljene odluke.

    Iako, svi smo imali nepromišljenih odluka, ustvari ne mogu reći svi, ali ja sigurno jesam. Srećom, nijednu ovako kompliciranu.

    I ne bih voljela biti niti u koži tih ljudi kad saznaju da nisu djed i baka. I tu će emocije raditi sve u šesnaest. Slomljena srca, kako kaže apricot, sto posto.

    Čim, čim prije, tim, tim bolje što se tiče razrješavanja.

    A, ma valjda smijem reći, svaka žena u plodnim godinama treba dobro razmisliti ako ide u odnos bez zaštite. Da je ugraditi neki čip koji kaže: STOP, plodna si! Ali, nema. Posljedice svojih postupaka svatko mora podnašati, kakve god bile. Dobro je da su svi zdravi i živi. Slomljena srca i prijateljstva će zarast. A život je samo jedan.

  44. #44

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    Ako tebe to kopka to je jedna stvar, ali što se tiče istine ko takve, ona je precjenjena.... Ako dijete ima dobru baku i djeda po ne-biološkom ocu, koji ga vole, trebaš li mu to oduzeti?

  45. #45

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    Ja sam uvijek za istinu ma kakva god ona bila. Tako da....

  46. #46

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    5

    Početno

    Samu sebe preispitujem dali je pametno da kažem istinu :moj je razlog zato jer on i ja ionako ne živimo skupa od početka,on nas uopće ne zove niti baš pita za dijete,kaže da neće smetati time da nazove ali da voli dijete.Čujemo se samo kad ga ja nazovem i predložim da se vidimo (ja dofuram malog njemu),ne zato jer sam ja tako tražila već zato jer on valjda uopće nebi nazvao.
    Ne tražim nikakvu financijsku potporu ali da sam na njegovom mjestu barem bih malome koji put kupila pelene.A pelene treba često kupovati,nisu jeftine a ja ne radim. (Pomažu mi moji roditelji i ono što dobivam od hzzo-a prvih godinu dana-1600kn..)
    Isto vrijedi za njegove,vole dijete ali nisu baš nešto vezani za njega-vide ga jednom mjesečno,ne sjete se nikad barem pelene kupiti.
    Često se sjetim kad sam bila trudna tokom jedne svađe bivši mi je rekao "kad rodiš,ajde priznat ću ti dijete al nećeš me više vidjeti",a kad sam mu to nedavno spomenula (zbog njegova negodovanja da kažemo istinu njegovoj mami),rekao je "ali to je bilo tada"..
    Nije da je on loš, ali teško ga privolim na neki razgovor i rješenje situacije.Stalno mi spominje kako je on u k... zbog svog promašenog života(kaže da nije to zbog mene i djeteta već općenito) i stalno me odgovara od bilo kakvog razgovora jer mu je to prestresno.
    Meni je na umu da djetetu ništa ne muljam-voljela bih od početka istinu da zna , da mu je on nebiološki otac ali otac na papiru,zbog tog i tog razloga(razlog je da smo se voljeli i željeli ga odgajati zajedno ali nismo uspjeli). Njegovi roditelji su njegovi roditelji (imenom) a ne "djed i baka",ali ako ga oni i dalje žele tretirati kao unuka ja neću braniti,samo želim da zna da mu nisu biološki djed i baka.
    Ako u budućnosti ikad pita za biološkog oca (a bude) ne želim mu niti tu muljati-bila sam zaljubljena u toj kratkoj aferi ali taj čovjek mi ništa ne znači,ali dao mi je tebe najboljeg na svijetu i zato sam mu zahvalna.
    Ako ga bude pokušao naći-pokušat ću ga svim silama odgovoriti i pripremiti ga da ako ga krene upoznati da će se najvjerojatnije razočarati..
    Moja bliska prijateljica odrasla je u identičnom slučaju bez oca(nije ju htio,otišao je) ali rekla mi je da ga nikada nije imala želju upoznati,da ju to čak niti ne kopka jer je primala bezuvjetnu ljubav od mame,tetke i bake i djeda i to joj je sasvim dovoljno,nikad joj nije falio taj "neki čovjek",kako kaže.
    Znam ,nisu sva djeca ista,moj slučaj nemora biti isti ali ona mi je slamka nade,tj.njen slučaj..
    Nadalje,puno razmišljam dali bi bilo pametno priznati njegovima istinu prije 1. rođendana djeteta (zbog zajedničkog slavlja)..

  47. #47
    ana.m avatar
    Datum pristupanja
    Aug 2004
    Lokacija
    Zagreb,wild west
    Postovi
    9,220

    Početno

    Potpisujem Beti.
    U kakvim ste vi odnosima uopće?
    Planiraš li cijeli život biti u kontaktu s njim i njegovim roditeljima?
    Po svemu rekla bih da niste dugo bili u vezi i kad tad svatko od vas krenuti će svojim putem. On pogotovo.
    Vjerojatno se bude i oženio, imao djecu, što tada?
    Mislim, ako on želi biti otac tom djetetu, to je u redu, ali to morate riješiti vas dvoje.

    Sretno!

  48. #48
    Tanči avatar
    Datum pristupanja
    Feb 2007
    Postovi
    7,888

    Početno

    Očinstvo se može osporavati do djetetove 7.godine života.
    Ako do tada roditelji, upisani kao roditelji ništa ne poduzmu, nakon toga samo dijete može osporavati očinstvo do punoljetnosti.

  49. #49
    Dijana avatar
    Datum pristupanja
    Aug 2005
    Postovi
    6,003

    Početno

    ajajaj..jesi se zaletila s tim priznavanjem očinstva-vjerojatno si jako mlada. No, kako "djed i baka" nisu nešto previše
    vezani za "unuka", možda im istina neće toliko teško pasti. Ako ga sad, dok misle da je on krv njihovog sina, vide jednom
    mjesečno, tko zna koliko će ga željeti vidjeti kad saznaju istinu..Istina će vam svima razbistriti odnose..i potpisujem beti, riješi
    to do kraja, taj tata je djetetu otac uistinu samo na papiru, oslobodi i njega i dijete mogućih nepotrebnih zavrzlama u budućem
    životu. Ne znam kako ide ta procedura, je li uopće moguće jednom kad priznaš očinstvo, tog istog očinstva se "odreći"?
    Čini se da je tvoj bivši nespreman svojim roditeljima reći istinu, može biti da će taj teret pasti na tebe. Ako budeš njega čekala,
    tko zna hoćeš li dočekati, njega savijest izgleda ne pere previše..uzmi stvari u svoje ruke i stvori čiste odnose da možeš mirna dalje graditi svoju i djetetovu budućnost.

  50. #50

    Datum pristupanja
    Nov 2003
    Lokacija
    nl
    Postovi
    3,371

    Početno

    da li je moguce da je tata sa papira depresivan? sto uopce osjecas prema njemu? ako ti je stalo do njega meni se cini da mu treba pomoc. jedino sto ne kuzi da li je to pomoc da se pokrene ili ce cijeli zivot biti takav mlitav, prepun zaljenja za samog sebe

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